Kevin Mulrane on this episode
Kevin Mulrane is a seven-time CRO and sales leader with extensive experience building revenue operations functions from the ground up. With a track record of scaling sales teams and revenue operations across multiple organizations, he brings practical, battle-tested insights to the question of when and how early-stage B2B SaaS companies should invest in RevOps talent.
The core insight is that revenue operations should be hired earlier than most founders expect, not later, and that the person you hire must match the specific problem you're trying to solve at that stage of company growth. Mulrane emphasizes that a VP of sales or CRO cannot effectively own RevOps alongside their other responsibilities, which include recruiting, interviewing, hiring, onboarding, deal management, and go-to-market strategy. The opportunity cost alone makes this a poor use of expensive talent.
What often gets missed is the difference between hiring RevOps to optimize what already exists versus hiring RevOps to build foundational systems and processes from scratch. Early stage requires a builder mentality: documentation of the customer journey, initial playbook creation, and alignment of processes to key metrics and reporting. The real value of RevOps is creating the glue between marketing, sales, and customer success so that these teams operate from a unified data foundation rather than competing narratives about lead quality, conversion rates, and customer retention.
The episode covers hiring timelines and profiles, the generalist-to-specialist evolution as companies grow, why RevOps gets cut during downturns (and why that's financially shortsighted), how to measure RevOps impact beyond project completion, and the trade-offs between building RevOps in-house versus outsourcing tactical execution.
What we cover in this episode
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2:15
Why RevOps Cannot Be Owned by the CRO A VP of sales or CRO already owns 20+ responsibilities; RevOps is a full-time role that requires dedicated focus to avoid burnout and stalled revenue growth.
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4:30
The Tools Trap RevOps is not about implementing Salesforce, Outreach, and HubSpot; it's about strategy, process, and alignment tied to customer experience and data insights.
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6:45
Hiring RevOps Too Late Kevin's mistake was waiting too long to hire RevOps, which meant he carried 8 out of 20 job responsibilities that should have belonged to a dedicated person.
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10:00
Generalist Builder vs. Tactical Optimizer Early stage RevOps hire must be a builder documenting processes and customer journeys, not an optimizer fine-tuning existing systems.
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18:30
RevOps as the Glue Between Silos True RevOps unifies marketing, sales, and CS data and incentives so teams row in the same direction rather than competing on conflicting metrics.
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28:00
Measuring RevOps Impact on Revenue RevOps success should tie to revenue KPIs like sales cycle, conversion rates, and rep productivity, not just project completion or tool implementation.
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38:15
Why RevOps Gets Cut in Downturns Short-term thinking leads founders and CFOs to eliminate RevOps roles, not realizing this is a sunk cost that enables higher productivity from expensive sales and marketing teams.
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42:30
Outsourcing RevOps vs. In-House Outsourcing works best when the leader is prescriptive about what they want built; strategy and ongoing alignment require an internal champion to prevent tools-first thinking.
The lines worth sharing
By bringing rev ops in early it really does create that glue that foundation between marketing to sales to customer success.
Kevin Mulrane · 8:15
Rev ops is really more of glue that creates alignment across all the different silos and removes that organizational friction.
Kevin Mulrane · 20:30
If you're not starting with the customer experience you want to deliver, you're going to design self-serving processes that are going to erode your customer experience.
Eddie Reynolds · 6:00
Don't leave rev ops up for interpretation so I was just very prescriptive in what the project was and what I wanted them to get done.
Kevin Mulrane · 52:45
Common questions from this episode
When should a startup hire its first revenue operations person?
Once you have been in market for a few months and have your first 25 to 50 customers, that is the right time to hire RevOps. Too early and you don't have a validated sales motion yet. Too late and your VP of sales is overloaded and burning out trying to own RevOps alongside recruiting, hiring, and deal management.
What should the first RevOps hire actually do in an early-stage startup?
Focus on documentation and process creation: mapping the customer journey, identifying key conversion moments in the funnel, documenting the sales motion and systems people use, and setting up initial reporting aligned to business metrics. This is builder work, not optimization work.
What is the difference between RevOps and Sales Ops?
Sales Ops manages the sales process and CRM. RevOps creates alignment across marketing, sales, and customer success by unifying data, metrics, and processes so all teams operate from the same truth rather than competing reports and conflicting incentives.
How do you measure the impact of RevOps on revenue?
Tie RevOps initiatives to revenue KPIs: did this project reduce sales cycle, improve conversion rates, increase rep productivity, or improve customer retention? Avoid measuring RevOps solely by projects completed or tools implemented. The goal is impact on revenue metrics, not just execution.
Why do companies cut RevOps during downturns if it is so valuable?
Short-term thinking leads founders and CFOs to view RevOps as overhead rather than a cost of scaling efficient sales and marketing teams. This is poor financial planning, because a RevOps person enables a VP of sales earning 300K to focus on revenue-driving activities instead of systems and reporting work.
Can you outsource RevOps or does it need to be in-house?
You can outsource tactical execution like systems setup and integration if you are very prescriptive about what you want built. However, strategy, alignment, and ongoing go-to-market decisions require an internal champion who understands your business and can ask the right questions rather than just execute tasks.
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Kevin Mulrane, 7-time CRO, shares when and how early-stage SaaS should hire RevOps: earlier than you think, and focused on building foundation processes that align sales, marketing, and CS.
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Read the full transcript · 66 KB · Kevin Mulrane
EDDIE REYNOLDSWelcome to RevOps Corner, where we talk about how B2B SaaS companies scale through revenue operations by interviewing amazing guests and sharing what we see in the trenches every day
EDDIE REYNOLDShere at Union Square Consulting. So we're going to dive right into this. I don't love webinars
EDDIE REYNOLDSwhere we spend 15 minutes doing introductions. So real quick, our agenda. I'm Eddie Reynolds. I'm the CEO and founder of Union Square Consulting. We're a revenue operations consulting firm. And we've got Kevin Mulrane, a seven-time CRO and sales leader, joining us as our guest. We're going to share some thoughts on the topic at hand. And then I'm going to interview Kevin and ask a few things about building a revenue team and building RevOps. And then we're going to open it up to the audience for questions. So as you guys have listened to us kind of share our thoughts, feel free to start pinging in questions you have. And then Jerry Marletta, our director of delivery, who is producing this in the background, is going to select questions and ask us those questions as we go into the audience Q&A, which actually, you know, Jerry, I think what we can do is we can call on that particular person to ask their question. And then either Kevin or myself can answer it based on the question that they ask. That works. Yeah. Well, I'll ask them to unmute and then I'll let them speak their own question. Perfect. So I'm going to start off and just share some thoughts on building out revenue operations and then give Kevin an opportunity to do the same thing before I dive into questions. And I think the first thing that I want to cover is just the basics of why you need revenue operations in an early stage startup. And I think the challenge that I see when I talk to revenue leaders across many different companies is that, you know, they already have too much to do. They're out recruiting, they're interviewing, they're hiring, they're onboarding, they're managing folks, they're oftentimes closing deals, they're doing deal reviews, they're responsible for the go to market strategy. And to then go and be responsible for making sure that all the tools are working and doing all of the analytics and spending all of this time on revenue operations, is going to spread them really thin and burn them out and or just inhibit their ability to actually build an engine such that the sales people and the marketers and the customer success people that they're onboarding are going to be able to walk into an environment where they can be efficient and effective from day one. It's going to slow down revenue growth, cause a lot of problems and a lot of stress and unnecessarily slow. So, and I'm anxious to see what Kevin has to share on this and why revenue operations is a hire that he advocates for very early on. Another thing that I'm going to share here is that one of the traps that folks fall into so often with revenue operations is starting with the tools and thinking we need to set up Salesforce and outreach and zoom info and HubSpot marketing and all these other tools and that is revenue operations and it's really not. I think this is a slippery slope because you can end up in a situation where you have a lot of different tools and an endless list of things that you have to do without ever being able to take a step back and tie in the strategy and think how are we going to market and what is our customer experience that we're trying to deliver and how do these tools all work together to deliver that customer experience and also provide us with meaningful data analytics and insights into the business to inform the CRO and other leaders in the organization on what's working and what's not. It's really easy to just end up with this endless list of to-dos in terms of things that you need to update in the tools and the strategy goes by the wayside. I think another thing that I really stress when we talk to companies about setting up their revenue operations from from zero is to start with a customer experience even if you do dive into strategy one of the big pitfalls that I see companies fall into is they say well we need to close deals in a certain period of time or get our close rate to this or we need to hit this revenue and of course that's very important but if you're not starting with the customer experience you want to deliver the ideal customer experience and thinking about this through the lens of your customer then you're going to design self-serving processes and self-serving tools that are going to erode your customer experience and cost you revenue in the long term. Kevin I'd love to turn it over to you for you to share some of your thoughts and then we'll go into the interview. Yeah absolutely you know I think what I really wanted to be able to share
KEVIN MULRANEhere tonight is is really talk about some of the mistakes that I've made in the past and probably a little bit earlier on in my career the mistakes I made when it comes specifically to hiring rev ops which I later you know you don't make the same mistake twice I later adjusted took a different approach and saw some really fruitful results from that and so the I think the first one you started touching on it Eddie but I think the first one is I hired sales ops too late and revenue operations a little bit too late a big part of that is because I really had to one I had to really get buy-in from the founder and the CEO on the value of rev ops right I think that that's a big thing today still to this day there's like over 88,000 revenue operations professionals on LinkedIn in the US still to this day though I think really being able to prove and share what the value of rev ops is is still a challenge that a lot of sales leaders face and when I did it too late the the challenges that I face and it you know the if you look at what a sales leader is responsible for right and Eddie you touched on some of those things but I actually I started actually mapping this out and I came up with about 20 things that were on my plate as as priorities to do and of those 20 things about eight of them fall under revenue operations and so for me it's it's a full-time role for a reason and it's really about where do you want your head of sales your VP of sales like where do you want their time and attention most focused and for me what I learned later on is by bringing rev ops in early it really does create that glue that foundation between marketing to sales to customer success also great gave us great collaboration with our finance departments as well as also with the product teams as well so a lot of times you get asked when should I hire it there's a lot of numbers you can look at number of sales reps you can look at ARR there's a lot of ways you can look at it I think again if I were to err on one side err on the side of earliness as opposed to too late the next thing too I think the the other mistake I made was really defining what the role is and when you look at rev ops as a whole I think you can get a lot of different types of uh I'll call it expertise right on what's the magical powers type thing and when you look at revenue operations I think on one end you have a very very strategic person right and if that's territory planning go to market commission structures things of that nature on the other flip side it might be a little bit more tactical right building the systems integrating the systems documentations um so I think the other the other mistake I made was I didn't hire the right person for what I needed at the time so um what I really really stress to a lot of early stage companies that I advise or even for myself in the past I really thought about where are we today and what's the role that I need to help create scale and create repeatability and help us get to that next level of revenue growth uh because again you know if you think about it you're you can find someone who's a bit of a generalist someone who might be able to to do a lot of different things but there's going to be a core uh a core skill set that you're looking for so if you think of the spectrum as being super and you know super insightful strategic analytical all the way down to tactical getting you know getting their hands dirty and building just just know where you know know what the profile is but um yeah I wanted to share that because again I for me um I've always been a sales leader that's loved revenue operations um I've always been a huge proponent of it and once I started figuring out the right ways of of hiring and building it into the revenue organization uh again I saw tremendous success with it um so I wanted to share some of the mistakes that I I personally made uh hopefully so you don't make those either but um yeah Eddie of course excited for the q a excited dive into all this a little bit deeper with you um and yeah appreciate everyone showing up to uh to chat with us tonight yeah everybody thank you again for joining us this is
EDDIE REYNOLDSour first uh first rodeo with uh rev ops live that I hope to turn into a weekly event subject to our ability to produce these and so again I encourage you guys to start sending in your questions and I'm going to ask a few questions to get us started and then we really want to make this you know a community event where people get the opportunity to to chat with each other to chat with us and to really get some value out of this and so um also encourage any feedback on what you guys find valuable and what you don't whether it's through the chat here or whether it is you know offline and some other some other uh outreach um so I think that I'll start off and I'll say or I'll ask you Kevin if you could expand on the scalability and repeatability so if we think about coming into a new organization and let's say there is no revenue team you're coming into an early stage company with no revenue team and you decide to make rev ops your first hire what specifically are you going to be looking for them to do to help you scale uh and repeat the go-to-market process as you start to add head count and go to market it's a great question I would say you know again if I'm if I'm thinking first and
KEVIN MULRANEforemost from a profile perspective I'm looking for someone who is um more of a builder than an optimizer right um if we're talking really early stage where we don't even have a sales team in place um to be honest that might be a little too early as one of the first hires um and the reason I say that is I think you do have to get out there and you do have to have some semblance of a sales motion right you have to know who you're you know again think those are some of the really basic frameworks what's the icp who are your personas what do we think the sales cycle is going to be what is the proper sales motion that's going to reduce friction create a really good buying experience and let's start to see how that plays out I think once you get to that place where you're in in you know you're in market for for a few months you got your first 25 to 50 customers I think that that's a really good time um at that time though what I'm what I'm really going to be looking at this person for is it's a lot of documentation right I think it's a lot of documenting what is that journey right what are those key moments what are those conversions we're going to be looking for throughout the entire funnel um I really think that it's going to be uh just starting to create a little bit of the playbook right not so much the go-to-market and the strategy playbook but more of the um what systems do we use how do you move through those systems just really documenting process um document processing that's going to align to key reporting and data and analytics that we're going to want to see um and then from there it's really starting to measure that um so I think that's probably if I'm if and again I I made a really early um rev ops hire and I think that's that was the approach right that was the process for us um and again I think with with rev ops and I think this is a really clear a good thing for us to maybe set the tone on you know rev ops is sort of this encompassing you know marketing to sales to cs the entire end-to-end customer journey not just what your individual sales team is doing so from a rev ops perspective it's really starting to unify and bring all of that together so in that way you know it's not that you've got the marketing reporting and then the sales reporting and they're two completely different numbers right it's it's really starting to create that alignment
SPEAKER_19across all those different key departments and stakeholders yeah absolutely I mean you and I
EDDIE REYNOLDStouched on this when we were talking earlier in preparation for this call you know about that the difference between sales ops and rev ops and I think that you and I have a view on what that is but I don't know that that view is necessarily universally shared across every individual that's running a go-to-market team out there so maybe you could expand on that um maybe the best way for me to ask this question is what is the difference between a sales ops person and a marketing ops person and a cs ops person working together versus having true rev ops yeah so I mean I it's an interesting
KEVIN MULRANEquestion and again I think to your point there's not a universal right and I think the reason and if you just think again marketing ops right you're working within the marketing system the marketing automations making sure that you have really great reporting within your marketing activity right and then obviously there's going to be a handoff to sales and that's sort of where sales ops kicks in
SPEAKER_19working with the sales process the crm making sure we've got the right sales data
SPEAKER_25i'm going to take a quick pause there and say every single the best go-to-market teams
KEVIN MULRANEfor any company i've ever advised been a part of studied seen right are those that are do not have these silos right so where i think rev ops comes in is it's really creating the glue between all these different silos because you again like i mentioned you can have all the best marketing analytics and data and reporting for your marketing team but if it does not align with what you're doing from a sales side you're going to have a lot of well whose report is right you're going to waste a lot of time you're going to have a and again i've i've lived it so i've seen that um so i think when you think about rev ops it's really more of glue that creates alignment and if you think of just using the customer journey as an example from the moment to become aware of your organization how they move through the entire journey to becoming a customer renewing expansion right i think rev ops also has a massive opportunity to work closely with your cfo on financial reporting and how revenue is tied to that um i also think and i've seen firsthand great great rev ops is working with product team um one to help pulling customer data so if it's a sas platform what are your customers doing in in the platform itself and pulling that data and putting it into a way where it's actionable and accessible for teams like the customer success team um and then also product feed let back loops things of that nature um and again i think if then it also goes into like sales enablement teams right really being able to showcase what sales enablement should be focused on doing training all that sort of stuff so rev ops to me is just making it's it's it's the orchestra right it's making everything move super super um super smooth but more importantly completely synchronized uh and and kind of pulling down those
SPEAKER_14silos yeah i couldn't agree with that more and i think that you know part of that is culture and
EDDIE REYNOLDSstrategy and part of that is really granular down to tools and data um and so as an example if you've got i think the classic example is when you have marketing chasing mqls and they're getting white paper downloads and you know event registrations and saying okay that's our that's our north star and then sales sales their north star is obviously closed deals and then cs their north star is happy customers that retain and grow that they retain and grow and if you can't even see the data across those three silos it's going to be really hard to unify people to row in the same direction but at the same time if you have misaligned incentives you can have all the data in the world but if you're telling marketing that you're going to be hired fired promoted compensated based on mqls then what are they going to focus on right and same thing with sales and this is a really touchy one but i've always felt that it's interesting that sales is always compensated solely on closed deals different companies view this differently but if you're not at least looking to see what customers are successful and not that's a real problem yeah and i think where rev ops also plays a a massive massive value and i don't know
KEVIN MULRANEif enough companies are thinking about this or actually leveraging it but it's really the the data and analytics you get from a customer success perspective that should that should be fed back to marketing like yes sales is on the front end and they hear and they see a lot no doubt but when you are working with your existing customer base and you hear how they explain your product and you can see the value props right so i think i think where what's really interesting is i don't see enough marketing teams working with customer success on voice of the customer and how is that going to you know impact or optimize the marketing messaging the strategy their go-to-market so having rev ops helps with
SPEAKER_09pulling that all together yeah i think that makes a lot of sense and you know a lot of this comes
EDDIE REYNOLDSdown to listening to your customers and i think this reminds me of a question i had for you a while back which is when you think about all the stakeholders you've got sales you've got marketing you've got cs you've got rev ops you've got product um as a revenue leader how do you think about who you give access to talk to customers and get ideas and feedback from them and how do you do that for example you know i've seen things where like part uh like product and marketing partner up to do a customer call to better understand you know their perspective but i'd be curious on yours on that yeah i mean so just like anything with a lot of these types of questions
KEVIN MULRANEthere is not one clear answer right um and usually my answer to this though is whoever is best suited to right and so it really is who's going to be owning the relationship who has the skill sets to really um have these types of conversations because this is not this is very much more strategic question or conversation um it's not necessarily a very pointed question so i think you have to have you want the right people in the room with the right skill sets to me i don't think it necessarily matters if it is the um you know vp of sales cmo like i don't know if job title really matters to me um but if you can get the ceo founder in the room i think that's a fantastic thing right um so that's one i think the the other part of this too though is that you got to be very careful because although we crave feedback from our customers right and that's going to help us build better products and it's going to help us uh do more effective marketing and and really fine tune and hone our messaging our customers don't work for us right so you always have to be super mindful of how often you're asking your customers for things and being very respectful of that so um part of that is i think you have to find creative ways where um if you are asking them for something right there it's kind of like this really nice quid pro quo right if you're getting something from them you should be able to return something of equal value if not more so that's sort of another thing i always like to mention
SPEAKER_33we do talk through customer feedback yeah i couldn't agree with that more um
EDDIE REYNOLDSso let me think about the next question that i wanted to ask as you start to build the sales and marketing and cs team right and let's say that you're at five individuals on each or 10 somewhere in that range um how do you start to think differently about revenue operations and the things that are important for you to focus on versus when you were thinking about it as you started to hire your very first sales and marketing and cs hires yeah it's a good question i think um
KEVIN MULRANEwhen when you're thinking about that hire i would say where where do you where do you want to be and where do you project you're going to be in the next six to 12 months and what are the challenges and problems you're going to be encountered with then not necessarily in the moment right so i think when you're thinking about um continuing to build out your revenue operations teams that's that's how i've thought about in the past because if you continue to hire for the moment especially if you're in that hyper growth early stage startup right you're the problems you have today are not going to be the problems you have even next month right um so what are the problems you're going to be you know start to think about what what do we think our problems and challenges are going to be and what are the things that we're going to have to overcome or have in place that are going to help us scale more effectively so thinking about um what are hiring plans right what does overall sales performance look like what are the things that you may need from a rev ops perspective that's going to enhance and optimize sales performance um do you need somebody who's going to be able to kind of build out um more territory management go to mark you know and again back to that you need someone a little bit more strategic who's going to help you scale and think a lot more proactively into the future or is there just so much work that needs to get done that just adding another head to get to get work or to to divide and conquer right this person's a little bit great on the process and and and documentation this person's great at managing the systems and onboarding and getting folks great with user adoption um so again there's never this silver bullet one-size-fits-all answer um but as i'm starting to build out that's how i've thought about it and again it's that practical approach to
SPEAKER_09what am i going to be faced with in the next six to twelve months that we're going to need to overcome yeah i couldn't agree with that more and i think that's why we're big advocates of having a
EDDIE REYNOLDSrevenue operations roadmap and really sitting down and thinking about what is the company strategy what is the go-to-market strategy what is that going to look like in six months 12 months and then backing that into you know what is the go-to-market process what tools do we need set up what are the major things that we need to accomplish across those tools across the analytics when we're looking backward to see what's been working but looking forward to see what new initiatives we have on the plate right so if you're going into a new marketing channel you are hiring a different type of sales you know person you're going to have a different set of analytics that you need to test how well that's working and that's going to affect your revenue operations roadmap and to your point about hiring that may change the type of folks that you need on the revenue operations team to actually execute that roadmap i think that that's a big thing that we see with a lot of the companies that we're working with is that oftentimes they're still sort of buried in the tools or buried in sort of like the revert the rearview mirror analytics and not really able to see six months ahead well you know we're going to be adding this much headcount we're going into these new channels what are we going to need from a revenue operations perspective to make that work
KEVIN MULRANEyep yeah absolutely and i think the other part of the on this one you know as as the data and analytics piece scales whether that's you know uh new new regions new markets new products you're going to need to have somebody who's got that strategic mind to think through it um and additionally i love it because when it comes to the data rev ops is really this like unbiased they're not emotionally attached to any of the result so they really are in a way like this really good sort of third party that can um have that unbiased approach to what the numbers really mean um again especially sales leaders i've been there um i'd like to say i'm fairly objective and not biased but i'm so passionate about my team winning that sometimes uh you get a little you get a little blurred so i think it's a it's a big
SPEAKER_42part of scaling yeah i really love that perspective and i think about this a lot like i always think
EDDIE REYNOLDSabout money ball and i think about jonah hill's character in that and i think about like when you talk about the passion you think about like brad pitt arguing with all of his scouts and the passion that they had for the way that they select players and you're talking about the way that you select players or sales people that could be marketers or cs as well and having that completely objective person like sitting in the background saying look i don't really have a dog in this fight but when i look at the data this is what it tells me um when i look at what's going on with the sales team with what's going on with marketing and how that ties together you know i think we go back to that mql example i don't have a problem with folks like you know creating a lot of white papers and trying to get you know your customers to download them but the question is is that actually converting into revenue and then whatever is converting into revenue is that converting into customers that have success on the platform and renew and grow and if we're not looking at that and we're fighting about well you know marketing created all these leads and sales closed or didn't close them and cs can keep the customer they can't keep the customer then we have a recipe for a really challenging environment versus having somebody that does have you know that unbiased view to say look like i'm just looking across the across the spectrum here and this is what's working and this is what's not 100 um jerry do you want to open this up for q a now yeah absolutely we've got uh we've got a couple of
SPEAKER_03questions from wayne morris wayne i'm going to uh ask you to unmute you go ahead and fire away
SPEAKER_50hey chaps hey wayne hey wayne to face kevin yeah yeah i'm good thank you eddie good to see you again
KEVIN MULRANEum i have monopolized the questions which one should i start with um do you where do you see so you've talked about rev ops sales ops marketing ops cs ops uh in my mind those are specializations of of the role um and naturally i see that falling as the company grows as it gets bigger and bigger um is that how you see it as well do you see i mean i work almost exclusively with early stage startups have them throughout my career and i'm a huge advocate of rev ops as you probably both know um and i like to start with uh i like to start with rev ops and i have specialized out into marketing and sales as i've gotten bigger but i'm i'm often out of the company as that as is really maturing how do you guys see it yeah i i i see it similar um in the sense that
SPEAKER_33with with early stage i always for a lot of roles i think more generalist and then as you as you evolve
KEVIN MULRANEyou become to create a little bit more specialist right so even on the sales side it might be full
SPEAKER_14cycle aes into the sdrae model as just as an example right um so i do i do think it's the approach of
KEVIN MULRANEgeneralist uh to specialist works here um nonetheless though i think for the early stage you're gonna have to find um they're they're probably gonna have they're gonna lead to a specialty i'm sure right for pretty common um so i think as you're looking for that role you got to make sure that they have it's somebody who's not afraid to go out and just like figure it out right um one of the rev ops guys i hired um leaned a little bit more on the sales ops side but we didn't have marketing ops right he youtube was his best friend getting on linkedin messaging people different revops communities like he just had this great go figure it out mentality um so yeah i think that that similarly generalist to specialist is is is kind of the way i've taken it um from there though if you did silo it out and you have marketing to sales to cs you're probably going to start with either sales or marketing depending on how how well each engine is humming along um and then again probably get more to a sophisticated cs once you're you know maybe try to use a revenue maybe five million plus an arr for customer success ops something above that um 100 200 customers you know something around those lines but that's how i view it i don't know eddie i'm curious to get your take as well actually yeah it's
EDDIE REYNOLDSreally interesting perspective um you know i think i would say that you know if you look at like some of the the the slide decks that are floating around pavilion and they paint this picture of revenue operations for a very large organization you'll see like at least a second dimension to this if not a third dimension um and so it's not just marketing versus sales versus cs but it's also like a specific role are they working on systems are they working on process are they working on enablement are they working on strategy and planning um are they working on analytics right so i could see and i have seen how you can have one person and i think jerry is a really great example of this who spent a lot of his time managing salesforce and managing marketo and running the analytics on both and working across sales marketing and cs but as your business evolves and the marketing gets more complex and the sales gets more complex then there are going to be skills outside of that one person's domain right and so that may mean that well you need somebody that is a really great data analyst and then that data analyst may need to be somebody who's really really great at mark at analyzing marketing data right and so i think for me when i think about rev ops i'm always trying to go top down and i'm always trying to think what is the go-to-market strategy and where do we need to focus so if we if our go-to-market strategy is hey we have a small sales team but we're going to create a really sophisticated marketing engine which is something i'm increasingly becoming a big fan of versus you know investing more in sales then i want somebody that really understands the marketing side of the house and then as that grows we obviously have to set up the systems but the person setting up hubspot marketo pardot what have you may not necessarily be the person that's really really great at running analytics on marketing um that would be my answer
SPEAKER_63cool thanks chaps yeah i i think uh i think the other the one last thing i'll add to this
KEVIN MULRANEthat just kind of dawned on me um thinking about thinking about again how do you grow a rev ops org and the types of hiring the types of profiles you're going to need what is so common i work with a lot of sas companies that do this today you know they start out in either smb mid-market right but to hit that next level of growth everyone's moving upstream right like that's just such a common theme and that customer journey and sales motion for your mid-market team is going to be very very different than your enterprise team right so so thinking about like again how do you grow who your customers going to become what does all that take i think you're going to start to really quickly see you're going to have to find folks who've got specialized in terms of that selling or customer journey or selling motion as well
EDDIE REYNOLDSyeah i i totally agree with that kevin um wayne did you have any follow-up on that question or should we move to the next question no i think you guys have covered it covered it neatly so i appreciate
KEVIN MULRANEthat we can move to the next one am i the am i the uh you're the next one wayne yeah you can go for
SPEAKER_46number two can i throw a curveball in can i just throw something that's a little bit more spicy
KEVIN MULRANEfor you guys to get into i think i prefer that yeah sure it's our first one like why not throw a curveball
EDDIE REYNOLDSat us it's not going to be a curveball but i'm gonna i'm gonna touch on something that i think
KEVIN MULRANEwe're all aware of uh that that you guys touched on that eddie just on the outset i mean for me rev ops is like my right hand man like right hand person i i literally how can i get my job done without a the systems being in place the optimal for my team to be able to transparently operate effectively and b where am i going to find the time to do the analysis of the data to determine what we should double down on and what we should iterate on and just what we should ditch um so here's my question for you is like how how do we as a as senior sales professionals or at least me kevin and others how do we do a better job of convincing founders and ceos that this cannot be the sole domain of the vp of sales and the cro and that this hire is critical and if you don't hire this person you're basically tying at least one hand behind the back of the cro and their performance is going to be impacted as a result and i say and the context i say this uh within is both my own experience i think kevin's of uh of having a hard time convincing ceos and founders to make this higher be the amount of emails i have gotten recently from vps of sales saying wayne i'm having a really tough time trying to justify uh revops how you talk about it a lot can you help me out here and then the third data point if it's not the fourth if i've lost count is why is it revops appear to be getting fired in this like market downturn like why is it that like we're basically firing revops and taking our eyes off the road as we're trying to as we're trying to build so it all really feeds back to how do we do a better job of convincing the business of the value of rev ops yeah such a great question i love this question
SPEAKER_68kevin yeah i love this question um because i've i've been that vp of sales where um not only are you
KEVIN MULRANEout there trying to hire a team build a team build a strategy build a playbook like you're also uh trying trying to coach and pipeline and get indeed like i think what i i think there is a a perception and i've seen it i've lived it where the founder hires your vp of sales and i go wave your magic wand and make revenue up into the right and and that's what you do um and i think the reality is that we all know that that's not true right one person cannot have that impact it is marketing it is sales it is product it's it's the entire organization um how do we fix it i think it's it's you know there there's a lot of really great people in rev ops who are just making noise in the space and just showcasing helping define what it is what the impact is um i think it's doing events like this right that really kind of puts a little bit more of a spotlight on the value of rev ops and having people like myself come and say i was that overworked overly stressed vp of sales trying to spin every single plate possible and inevitably um uh plates are going to fall what i and what's really interesting um doug landis wrote an amazing article on this but he talks about the four superpowers of a vp of sales right and you have to kind of figure out and for so he's got a great article it talks about when do you find like when do you hire them what should the profile look like um and i think what's what's really interesting i had to go make the case to founders and the way i did it was i literally i wrote down here's all the things i'm focused on how can i simply do all of these at a high level right so it got to just a very candid conversation of where do you want me spending my time and where do you not want me spending my time and if i'm not going to spend my time here we have to make that higher um so i think i think that's a part of it um the good thing and that one of the nice things is when i was in the the c-suite and i was the cro i made that call i didn't have to get the approval and things flew right things went super seamless i got to hire in early i got to focus on the things that were going to drive impact pipeline and revenue um and like you mentioned i i same i look at rev ops as the right hand person to help figure get the systems down get the process down get the reporting get the analytics and instead of me trying to build the reporting and then look at the numbers and figure out what they are i can work with this person and say hey here's what the numbers are here's what they're telling me and and then we can have a really nice um conversation about it but um candidly i i think it's it's a it's a really challenging thing and i think that's why you see you know there's such a short tenure for a vp of sales because they're asked to do way too much um in a way you're kind of set up for for success it's one of those uh you're damned if you do you're damned if you don't type roles right um but yeah i think i think honestly though there's there's a lot of people that are big huge proponents and advocates of rev ops i think we just need more of it yeah everything you said kevin i'm gonna
EDDIE REYNOLDStake a different perspective on this but i completely agree one i feel like i've been trying to sell rev ops for 10 years now you know from doing this to working at salesforce and maybe even longer than that depending on how you look at my career and i have tried to sort of like fight these windmills and sell to people that just don't get it for a very very long time and i think i've given up i think that and i'm sorry that that's so negative we are doing events like this and we're putting out content in hopes of like winning more people over to this idea but i think in a one-to-one situation i really struggle with trying to change someone's religion you know and it doesn't have to be rev ops it could be like they don't they don't get they don't get rev ops they don't get using technology they don't get marketing i don't know i don't know how you win people over that but i would say that the one case that i always try to make when people ask me this question is the real cost of a vp of sales or a cro and the opportunity cost of that individual as well as the sales people right so if we think about a vp of sales you know making four hundred thousand dollars a year or two hundred thousand dollars a year for talking you know lower compensation salaries whatever pick the number when you track that down to an hourly basis that that person is usually the most expensive individual in the entire company and you want to have them spend time doing something that someone else could do 10 times faster and 10 times better than them at a fraction of the cost and that's the real cost we're talking salaries here right not even commissions bonuses etc and we're not talking about the actual target that they have on their head to produce and so from that perspective on an hourly basis i mean you're talking thousands of dollars an hour for something that you could find somebody to do for a fraction of that what's also going to happen is that they're just simply not doing this and this i think is something that really takes folks a long time to learn and as a founder myself i'm guilty of this too i'm a member of the entrepreneurs uh entrepreneurs organizations largest organization of entrepreneurs on earth and the big thing that they're always preaching this has i was going to say nothing to do with rev ops but it actually has everything to do with rev ops is that you have to document your processes and system systematize everything so that it can be repeatable and scalable right and this is an organization that's talking about a lot of services businesses and folks that are not vc-backed high growth companies and they're advocating the same approach and they're
EDDIE REYNOLDSsaying you can't grow your company if everything's just in your head and you've got these disparate tools and these disparate processes that only one or two individuals understand right and so but the challenge is is that as a founder you're sitting there thinking that sounds great but i'm just trying to make money this month and like i don't have time to go and sit down and document every single process in my company but i think for me i've learned the hard way that that slows your growth i look back six years ago when i started the company and i see the stupid mistakes that i made that inhibited my ability to grow this company faster by not doing it the right way to begin with
EDDIE REYNOLDSand i think rev ops is the same thing you can kind of hack things together and say let's get five sales people together let's give them a list let's just hammer calls and let's just fire the folks that like can't make it and i would add to that that the reason that i think that we're seeing tightening in rev ops is that it's the same mentality it's that well sales people are supposed to produce so why can't we have sales people like set up sales force or import their own contacts so why can't we have you know vps of sales figure this stuff out and it's for the reasons i just mentioned you're not going to get maximum value from those folks that you're spending a lot of money on and that have very little skills in this particular arena at least that's my opinion yeah that makes a lot of sense
KEVIN MULRANEi think the only thing i would add is i just think it's downright poor financial planning i mean i just don't know i just don't know why a cfo can't have an intelligent conversation with a cro and a bp of sales and said look this is this is this is our cost to acquire a customer goal and this is what we're going to need to get there and red box is just a sunk cost as part of that but what you're going to get out the other end is going to be more productive happier sales teams that scale more effectively and that don't have these like you know these these moments where they hit a brick wall because they've actually started to do things or continue to do things that don't work very well and and not double down the things that work very well because they haven't had this bird's eye view of what's happening on the ground so i think a lot of this is just actually at the cf you know at the doorstep of the ceo and cfo in terms of where it comes to like just financial planning around what's
SPEAKER_50going to cost to build a sales team it's a lot of long-term thinking versus short-term thinking
EDDIE REYNOLDSand then you know when you take that vp of sales especially maybe a first time vp sales is coming into a role and they've got probably 18 months before they're going to get fired and they don't have the support and i mean you see kevin i'm sure you can identify with with this but you see a lot of a lot of talk out on linkedin and other communities about how difficult the job of the vp of sales is when the ceo is demanding so many different things and not giving the resources needed in order for that individual to be successful um when these are great questions but i want to make sure that we give time for other folks to ask questions too so i'm gonna avoid like keep going down this path yeah we've got a great we've got another question eddie from uh from carrie mayfield carrie i'll uh
SPEAKER_03should be able to unmute hello thank you so much for letting me be a part of this conversation this
OTHER GUESThas been amazing so far so i'm really appreciative that you talked about um why it's so odd to see people uh laying off rev ops cs ops people um i was one of those and i literally asked who's gonna do all the stuff that needs to be done still like where's that gonna go uh but my question is more about how do you measure the success of rev ops so what metrics should you have in place to show the
SPEAKER_83impact of what you're doing yeah i'll take a quick stab at it um i'm sure eddie you're gonna have a really
KEVIN MULRANEgood um point of view here as well um you know so this is what i've done in the past and it's it's worked it's worked well for me um one from from more of a overarching management perspective i've found that if you manage a rev ops team similar to a product team it works really well so eddie mentioned like um a roadmap like a project plan with timelines and and deliverables and so i think part of it is um especially if you're very much in building mode i think that that's part of it um however and actually similar to a product team um all of those initiatives and all of those projects whatever let's call them should tie to some type of positive revenue impact right some type of revenue kpi now that might be um decreasing sales cycle increasing conversions maybe you're optimizing a process um that's gonna you know reduce time of sales um spending in the crm like whatever it is but i think if you can actually show um tangibly show the impact that rev ops is having on sales whether that be actual revenue certain kpis or even where sales reps time is spent which again should correlate back to some revenue um that's how i've done in the past it's always been really effective and beneficial um from my perspective um but yeah eddie i'm curious to get your take as well yeah i mean i don't want to be like a
EDDIE REYNOLDSnegative nancy on this uh this this zoom um i think what you said is accurate um i would say a couple of things one you know folks working for you had the benefit of working for somebody that like looks at the world in this way and i think that's great i think that in an ideal world you want to have that roadmap and you want to be able to say okay like these are the things that we did from a tools perspective we implemented all these things and this is the impact that we that this had on the sales team on their productivity and their efficiency on the marketing team on the cs team etc i will say that when i interview folks um there's a challenge there like a lot of times especially the really technical folks that are either rev ops professionals or maybe they're specific like salesforce professionals etc they'll tell me about something they built and i'll say well how did that impact the the sales team and they'll say well you know i don't really know uh how did that impact revenue i don't really know so i think that there really should be an impetus to try to be really thinking through that lens and that's where ideally the revenue operations roadmap should be doing that by putting the go-to-market strategy at the very top and then backing into that and saying this is how we're going to get there i also think that in an ideal world you want to set a foundation of metrics and say okay you know like our sales cycle is this today our close rate is this today and then you want to be thinking about how do i optimize that how do we improve it and then having tangible you know action items to try to work on improving that so that you can then point back to that and then i think also you know it's internal marketing that being said i think that that paints a picture that it's just always gonna it seems to me like a little bit of rose tinted glasses where i do think like it's a challenge i think that some folks are just going to say especially as things tighten up why do we need that why can't sales people just hack it together um why can't marketing just hack it together um and so i'm really sorry to carry that that you've experienced the layoff and i really appreciate you coming here and and asking that question and feel free to reach out to me directly if there's anything i can do to be helpful um but does that does that helpful does that help in answering your question yeah that is really
OTHER GUESThelpful and no problem at all i it's probably going to be the best thing that ever happened to me so um that is really helpful i think um so in my previous role i was actually cs ops and i reported up through our revenue operations leader and when i asked my boss that question her answer was basically the number of projects we got done and we never tied it back to any kind of revenue metric so that is really helpful and i think that makes a lot of sense yeah i mean i will say that i don't know i
EDDIE REYNOLDSi think it can be a helpful exercise but you know like back when i sold i worked for salesforce as an account executive for three years and so we're trying to sell these tools and you do all this roi analysis and all this stuff which i think is probably really great if you're trying to sell to like the cfo of general electric i was selling to like vc-backed startups and i think they were always really skeptical of this stuff and i was too um i always go back to and my background by the way is like as a financial analyst so which is kind of ironic that i'm like negative on roi analysis um and i quote like warren buffett when he says like hey you don't need to know if like you know a man is like 350 pounds or 300 pounds to know that he's overweight i think that there are some times where you see something and it should be relatively obvious and there should be an element where leadership can see that you know we're implementing better processes we've got better systems sales people are reporting back that they have an efficient flow and there are some metrics tied to that i do think that like just at least asking the question of how does this actually impact sales because i do see people falling into the trap of saying we added this workflow we built this we integrated this tool it's like great you integrated outreach okay but does any is anybody actually using outreach oh they are using outreach okay are we getting more meetings out of that um and i think that that's where the roi stuff becomes challenging because like did we get more meetings because we had great sales people or a great sales leader or great technology or great rev ops so the answer is all of the above um but i do think that rev ops is doing themselves a disservice if they're not at least looking at it through that lens and then also like reporting back and saying hey guys look you know we've booked double the meetings that was our goal like let's start with the goals to begin with right the goal is not to set up outreach and integrate it with salesforce the goal is to help sales book more meetings so did we achieve that goal or not um and i think that that's the more important thing to be focusing on from a rev ops perspective especially if you're trying to show value in rev ops versus yeah let's check the box that
EDDIE REYNOLDSwe set up outreach yeah eddie i think you said it really nicely before right where you've got your go
SPEAKER_41to market strategy you've got your your like the kpis and the goals you want to hit for say the quarter
KEVIN MULRANEright there's none of those goals are completely on one person or team's shoulders right even sales right sales it's it's it's marketing it's sales it's product right it's all of these things that drive to that that revenue number so look at those those high level like revenue goals and objectives and kpis and then just think about like how how do i play a role in this right and and what are the initiatives i'm going to do that will contribute to this and i think the example that you use with outreach and booking more meetings is a perfect one right um if you don't implement it well with great user adoption with a great great playbook and a really seamless process you're not gonna book more meetings if you do that and then sales does their thing right and the messaging's on and marketing does their thing like you're gonna book more meetings but we all everyone plays a role in it so that's
SPEAKER_12that's a great way of thinking about it awesome um jerry do you want to pick the next question
SPEAKER_03we don't have any other questions yet and if anybody's got anything they want to ask feel free to post it in the chat and we'll see you up wayne i feel like you've got at least one more in your back
EDDIE REYNOLDSpocket i could riff on all sorts of stuff with you guys and everyone on this on this call um oh i had
KEVIN MULRANEone that i didn't ask how about i just ask that uh the original question i asked is this the outsource
SPEAKER_03to revops yeah yeah yeah yeah so kevin have you had success outsourcing the tactical revops piece in
KEVIN MULRANEin an in an early well at any stage but how much success have you had in outsourcing revops versus having it in-house yeah so a lot of what i've done has been in-house um however i have done some
KEVIN MULRANEoutsourcing um i think i'm a little bit of a unique case because i have run and built revops teams as well as running and building sales teams so i i would say when it comes to my knowledge on it it it might be more than the average vp of sales so i think i was able to um what i think the reason i think it worked i guess i'll start there i was a i knew exactly i was very very um pointed i know exactly what i wanted i didn't leave too much up for interpretation so i was just very prescriptive in what the project was what i wanted to get have them get done and it was really me building it out and then just pushing it off to someone just to do the actual building in the work so that worked really well um if you don't know what you want or conceptual you have an idea practically what does
KEVIN MULRANEthat mean practically kevin just so everyone can be aware does that mean you're like you're deciding what the tech stack should be how it should be used what the workflow should be what what marketing through to str to sales or customer success should look like what does that actually mean yeah so uh
SPEAKER_71i'll give you a real life use case so um i had to outsource getting salesforce stood up
KEVIN MULRANEright and so we had um we were using outreach right so i knew exactly how i wanted those two systems to interact and play together so i documented that process um i knew exactly the right types of fields i needed in salesforce i knew the reporting that i wanted i knew the sales motion i wanted and how that tied in to using and moving through the crm right i knew certain things of um you know i want this field to be required at that stage so like i was able to document and basically hand off and say build this right there was really no room for interpretation or just very prescriptive on exactly what i wanted to have built um it worked because i was able i think i think it worked because i was able to do that and i just i didn't have the bandwidth uh to do so um and i didn't have it in house so just shipping it off made it really easy but um yeah i think just the fact that it was super prescriptive on every single aspect every step everything was documented it worked does that help did that answer it i'll i'll expand on that and i'll try really hard not to just pitch our book
EDDIE REYNOLDShere wayne um because it would be easy to do that right like maybe i'll try to pitch against it so we we have a customer and um they went from basically nothing uh at all like no sales team no marketing team like really just like ground zero to um having a full-time uh and very intelligent revenue operations professional that we were working with and you know like i butted heads with him in a very good way very positive like healthy debate with him and i learned a lot because he actually came from being a strategy consultant and i think one of the things that he was always pushing back on me is we were pushing to do more than just tools for them but holistic rev ops in partnership with him is he's like well we're never going to outsource our strategy you know i'm not just going to like have a consultant like own our strategy and i thought you know that makes a lot of sense i've never really thought or expected a customer to come to us and just tell like ask us like just tell me what to do i think that that's unrealistic i think though that kevin is on the other end of the spectrum where he knows so much about this that it's very easy for him to be prescriptive and there's a lot in the middle right so i think setting up tools is really really easy to outsource especially if you are like kevin and know what you want i think for folks that don't know what they want they need a little bit more hand holding and i really whether you're looking at a rev ops shop or just a salesforce or hubspot shop whatever i'd really encourage people to be really careful and make sure that they hire somebody that can ask the right questions but systems is just one single part of revenue operations right kevin has a really firm grip on analytics now that there's a big difference between saying well i'm going to talk you through all of your metrics and help you figure out what you should be tracking and what you shouldn't versus i'm going to own your entire like revenue operations and go to market strategy i do think that there is an element where if you're not having those water cooler conversations as an internal employee like there's just only so much we can do as consultants right i think that somebody has to be there sort of watching over things and really thinking holistically about the go-to-market strategy but then i think you can go to somebody external and say i need help with pieces of this in reality though i think a lot of a lot of revenue operation shops ourselves included are doing a lot of systems work and i think that there's a strong pressure both for companies like us as well as internal revenue operations professionals to spend all their time on the tools and not enough time thinking about the strategy and i think there really should be a partnership there and i don't see an enormous difference between being like a rev ops pro and being like an outsource rev op shop in that regard in that there is a challenge getting senior stakeholders to say well hold on a second can we like stop talking about the fields that you want in salesforce and talk about like our go-to-market motion and what our ultimate goals are because they're like well so like is salesforce going to be set up tomorrow why are we talking about like our buyer personas and our ideal customer profile
EDDIE REYNOLDSbecause how do we set up a system and process to go to market if we don't even understand who we're targeting and i think that that's a challenge i see with our clients and i see this when i talk to
EDDIE REYNOLDSa lot of revenue operations professionals that are in-house so it's kind of a long-winded answer but i'm
EDDIE REYNOLDScoming back to saying that i think when you're outsourcing you know to some extent you want execution and to another extent you want to know like do we have the right strategy and if you have somebody that you can bounce that strategy off of and it can be different like you may really understand sales strategy but be struggling with marketing strategy um or cs strategy and i think that that's an opportunity where you can like put two heads together and say like well here's my area of expertise what's your area of expertise and like how do we add value to each other um and i see a lot of things where you know with this individual like he's a really smart guy and he knows a lot about rev ops but he doesn't know every single thing there is to know about rev ops nor do we right so where do we put our heads together and say wow you know you're trying to set up a renewal process we know a lot about that maybe we could share with you what we've seen in terms of setting up renewal processes does that help that helps a lot thanks guys awesome all right we've got another
SPEAKER_46question from uh grayson faircloth grayson go ahead and unmute hi guys yeah so it was eddie touched on
SPEAKER_103a little bit of it um but yeah definitely crm setup is a big thing for early stage startups and like growth teams at early stage startups what are some of the other like high impact things that you would consider like one less than a millionaire are um what is your rare box team like focusing on uh at that
KEVIN MULRANEstage yeah i think i think for me my favorite one or the biggest pain point i see for companies in that stage um they buy a lot of tech that they just don't use right so user adoption across a lot of these tools um isn't um isn't there they and again i'm a huge fan of um you know i'll use a an example um i work for the company uh as an advisor and they have um wingman implemented and no one uses it so i asked the founder i'm like why why do we buy it he's like oh we want to do sales coaching it's like cool how are you doing it before wingman you weren't oh okay so this magical investment is also going to create these behaviors right so i love as i build out teams i love to try and create the behaviors for whatever we're trying to fix and implement and then build the tech to help scale it or make it better more efficient um so i think user adoption across a lot of tools is one i think the um we kind of touched on this a little bit too though but i think rep efficiency is a massive problem in early stage because they just don't have their process down they're not doing things as seamlessly as possible they're not integrating tools the right way um so i think uh that's another one is just really really nailing down what reps are doing what where their time investment is and where they should be spending their time and how to optimize that so um and if i had to give a final one it'd be data really really bad data hygiene like they've got salesforce or hubspot set up but it's kind of half-assed and so all the data is not there um they've got some they're blind to other things so that'd be another one um it's interesting you use the figure a million uh ar right it was ar right
EDDIE REYNOLDSnot mr um to me and uh i'm disappointed that wayne had to jump uh because i feel like this is kind of one of his areas of expertise is that you know at that level you know you may you may be kind of like at the beginnings uh early stages of product market fit right you're just starting to like really build a team so kevin i'm not sure what you were kind of like envisioning as you answered that question um but i think like if you just got like one or two sales people or you're just beginning to hire those two sales people you need to be really narrowly focused on what are those folks actually going to do and i think that that's the biggest problem i mean that's exactly what you're talking about with that tool is that there's not a strategy and a process behind it they think like well let's buy a tool and it'll solve a problem for us i know for us you know we we had extensive conversations with gong um and we were thinking like well you know should we set up gong internally and i'm a huge fan of gong and the lens that i looked at through that is okay and as i was talking to jerry oh jerry this is great we're going to get all of this conversational intelligence on everybody including our consultants on how they're talking to people okay what are we going to do with that like where's the time that we're going to block each week that we're going to go and review those calls where's the time that we're going to block each week that we're going to take the outcomes from those calls and then coach our team on that and as much as we should be doing that it's just i'm sorry like we're really stretched thin we just don't have the capability to execute on that right now um and i think that when i see revenue teams that are really successful it's we're narrowly focused on this one or two things especially at like a million arr right like that's a really small organization in comparison to 10 million 50 million etc there really should be only so many things that you're doing so if you're saying hey you know we're going to set up outreach well okay do you have your ideal customer profile defined do you have your buyer persona defined do you have an outbound prospecting motion do you have people that are going to be doing prospecting every single day no we just have some aes and they're openers and closers and relationship managers and they're talking to our existing customers they're also like out networking and doing it like i i have outreach i'm a huge fan of it i log into it like once every three months because i don't actually have time to do prospecting even though i think outreach is amazing um and so i think that that's a trap you see folks fall into and that's where we're always trying to push back on people and say like don't buy the next tool like let's make sure that this particular process is working before we think about opt optimizing another process that you don't even have time to execute right now cool thank you i hope that answers uh answers your question i kind of got off on uh on a tirade there but uh you touched a nerve oh yeah that was good thank you jerry do we have any more questions no that's it for now cool well we don't need to stretch this on unless anybody else has anything but um i'm really appreciative of everybody that that showed up tonight um and really really enjoyed this so if nobody has anything i guess we can we can wrap here um thank you guys all for your questions jerry thank you for uh producing this and organizing this and and kevin obviously thank you for joining us and uh and sharing everything you've learned over uh over this journey that you shared with us yeah no man thank you really appreciate you for for having me on
KEVIN MULRANEi i love uh i love diving into this stuff sharing um like i said sharing all the mistakes i made early on and where i got a lot of gray in the beard and you guys don't have to do it so uh so yeah so thank you for having me on and uh yeah anybody on here if there's anything i can do to help you want to keep conversations going um have additional questions um feel free reach out to me i'm uh pretty accessible on linkedin so uh yeah we'd love to would love to keep things going but appreciate you eddie jerry you guys are the best
