Warren Zenna on this episode
Warren Zenna is the founder of the CRO Collective and a 25-year B2B executive with deep experience in ad tech, marketing, and revenue leadership. His work focuses on helping companies and chief revenue officers navigate the increasingly complex role of revenue leadership at scale. Over his career, he observed persistent misalignment between sales, marketing, and customer success functions, which sparked the founding of his firm to define and professionalize the CRO role.
The core thesis: most companies mistake the CRO role for a sales leadership position, which is fundamentally wrong and leads to failed hires and organizational friction. Zenna argues that a true CRO operates as the CEO of the entire revenue operation, overseeing sales, marketing, customer success, and revenue operations as an integrated system. The distinction matters because it determines whether a company can scale sustainably or remains trapped in short-term, myopic growth patterns.
The reframe is critical: hiring a CRO is not about finding a better sales leader; it's about declaring organizational readiness to move from teenage improvisation to adult maturity. This requires a deliberate, science-based process that aligns the company on role definition before recruiting, assesses organizational readiness before onboarding, and equips the CRO with the authority, autonomy, resources, and runway necessary to succeed. When companies skip this work, CRO tenure averages 15-17 months, making the hire expensive, disruptive, and often blamed on the wrong person.
The episode covers the mistakes companies make when defining and hiring CROs, the competencies CROs actually need, how candidates should evaluate prospective employers before accepting the role, and practical strategies for CROs facing unsupportive environments. Zenna also discusses the resources available through the CRO Collective, including a master's council, accelerator course, and community platform.
What we cover in this episode
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0:48
Warren's Background and Journey 25 years in B2B advertising and marketing, advisory roles, and P&L leadership that shaped his perspective on revenue operations misalignment.
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3:36
Misalignment Across Revenue Functions Sales, marketing, and customer success operate independently without lockstep goals, messaging, or systems, creating a fragmented customer experience.
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7:10
Defining the CRO Role Correctly A CRO leads the entire revenue operation (sales, marketing, customer success, rev ops) as an integrated system, not just sales leadership with a fancier title.
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9:00
CRO Readiness and Hiring Risks Companies often hire CROs without preparation, resulting in average tenures of 15-17 months and substantial organizational disruption if the hire fails.
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23:09
Common Mistakes in CRO Role Definition Most companies conflate CRO with head of sales for compensation trade-offs or board optics, missing the revenue operation leadership opportunity entirely.
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29:07
What CROs Should Evaluate Before Accepting Candidates must confirm the company agrees on role definition, assess their process for CRO onboarding, and kick the tires on authority, autonomy, resources, and runway.
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35:32
Key Competencies for CROs CROs need holistic business thinking, customer-centric mindset, financial acumen, board-level communication skills, and ability to hire and develop functional leaders across revenue.
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47:01
Supporting Underperforming CROs Diagnostic work to determine if constraints are company limitations or performance issues, followed by tactical options: rebuild internal credibility, persuade leadership, or exit.
The lines worth sharing
If I'm hiring someone that has the word chief in front of the title, it should be a pretty important position with a lot of authority and impact.
Warren Zenna · 7:57
Most CROs only last like 15, 17 months. It's bad for the company. It's a very expensive hire.
Warren Zenna · 9:00
You're not hiring someone to run a sales organization. You're hiring someone to recalibrate how all those customer facing functions work together.
Warren Zenna · 7:10
A CRO needs four things: proper authority, autonomy, resources, and runway to do the job. Without those, it's a no-win situation.
Warren Zenna · 39:52
Common questions from this episode
What is the difference between a CRO and a Head of Sales?
A true CRO leads the entire revenue operation (sales, marketing, customer success, revenue ops) as an integrated system, while a Head of Sales runs only the sales function. Most companies mistakenly hire a salesperson and give them a CRO title for compensation or optics reasons.
Why do most CRO hires fail?
CRO tenure averages 15-17 months because companies lack a defined onboarding process, fail to assess organizational readiness, don't align on role definition before recruiting, and don't equip the CRO with authority, autonomy, resources, and runway.
What should a CRO candidate look for before accepting a job?
Verify the company agrees on role definition (not just sales), ask about their CRO onboarding process, and assess authority to make decisions, autonomy to experiment, sufficient resources (people and budget), and realistic runway for impact.
What competencies does a CRO actually need?
Holistic business thinking, customer-centric mindset, ability to hire and develop leaders across marketing, sales, and customer success, board-level communication, financial acumen, data literacy, and understanding of revenue operations.
What should a CRO do if they're not being supported?
First, diagnose whether constraints are company-wide limits or specific to your performance. Then try to rebuild internal credibility, make a persuasive business case for resources, or if the company won't budge, exit for a better-fit role elsewhere.
How do you assess if a company is CRO ready?
Evaluate the CEO/founder's reasoning for hiring a CRO, their thinking on cross-functional integration, their willingness to define a clear process, and their ability to provide authority, resources, and realistic expectations for change.
SEO meta description
Warren Zenna explains how CROs can thrive in their role and the critical mistakes companies make when hiring them—starting with confusing the CRO title with sales leadership.
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CRO Collective
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Read the complete conversation
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Read the full transcript · 59 KB · Warren Zenna
RACHAEL BUECKERTWelcome to CRO Stories, a new show from Union Square Consulting, where we interview brilliant B2B chief revenue officers and go-to-market experts to find out what it takes to succeed as a revenue leader. My name is Rachel Buchert. I'm the marketing manager here at USC, and with me here for our first episode is Warren Zena, founder of the CRO Collective. Today, we're going to be talking about the mistakes companies make when hiring a CRO and how CROs can thrive in their new role. Warren, thank you so much for being here, and thank you for being my first ever podcast guest. Well, thanks. I feel honored and I
WARREN ZENNAappreciate it. Thanks for inviting me. And I'm really excited to have you on as first guest of
RACHAEL BUECKERTthe show because the work you do is truly foundational for not only setting CROs up for success, but setting companies up for success as they scale their revenue leadership. Could you start us off with a little background about yourself and the CRO Collective? Sure. So I started the company about
WARREN ZENNAfive years ago because after 25 years in B2B businesses, mostly in the advertising and marketing media space, I kind of kept getting more senior level roles and my scope of my roles increased to the point where I had a much larger view of a business. And then I was in the ad tech space and I was dealing with all the ad tech startups, which is a pretty, you know, very robust community, the ad tech space. It's where a lot of unicorns are born. And so there was just a lot of excitement and energy in the mid 2000s with advertising technology and all the money that was flowing into advertising technology. It was a real, like the SaaS was very much hot in that space. And so I became aligned with a lot of the ad tech companies and the founders. I was doing some advisory in addition to having a role at one of the big holding companies. I had a P and L role running a global business there. And after selling most of my career and being in marketing most of my career, now I was a buyer. I had money. I had to hire companies, technologies to help build a product. And so I was being sold like weekly by these ad tech companies and having trained and developed sales plays for my whole career, pretty much it was probably tough for these guys to sell to me because I was weird. I was a strange person in the agency world because most people in the agency space don't come from sales. You know, they're, you know, they're practitioners of marketing. They're in a disciplinary roles. They're either doing programmatic campaigns for companies or they're strategists. You know, they're delivering the services. I had a sales perspective in this role. And so it was just, I was a kind of a weird person in this business, honestly. And it brought a unique perspective to things. I, I tended to honestly to not look at things just about how well this particular tech would serve our needs. It, I was really more interested in how they sold to me. I was fascinated by this. But to me, it says more about a company, to be honest with you, the way that they pitched their business than it does about how they deliver their business. It's, it's, you know, if you go on a date with somebody, it's like how they go on those first two or three dates says more about them than how you're going to know about them long-term because it's, that's the way they show up. That's like their first, you know, and it's when you catch all the nuances. Right. And particularly because sales motions are very rehearsed, you know? So, and, and it's also where, and this is sort of like where the business idea came from, which I was noodling with it. You've got a sales organization, you've got a marketing organization, you've got a customer success organization, both operating at the same time. And customers typically spend the most time with the sales organization. I mean, they may get a marketing message, but once they respond to it, now they're in a sales motion and they're talking to somebody in the sales room. And so the sales organization tends to be the defining way that somebody perceives a company. Right. It's those people in that group, but they just represent one piece of the group. They're not the whole company. In fact, they're just a part of it that while it's critical to get you into the organization. Now you're a customer and you're dealing with a whole different group of people who are now responsible for delivering the product. And prior to that, you were, you were dealing with marketing people who are trying to persuade you to, to think about something. And sometimes, and most of the time, actually, these are three different things. They don't feel the same at all. They feel completely like three different organizations sometimes. Yeah. In fact, I think that the things I noticed most pervasively was people were selling to me and I could see, you know, they would do the perfunctory PowerPoint presentation and they'd walk through the slides and they do a demo. And invariably, almost all the time, I would see the salesperson would have developed their own way of talking about the product because they've had so many engagements with customers to talk about this, that they've sort of worked out their own way to communicate it clearly. Because salespeople have the benefit of repetition, right? They're talking to customers all the time. So they're sort of refining what worked and what worked, what worked and either they're doing it intentionally or they're just doing it organically. But either way, over time, a good salesperson will kind of fine tune the message. And many times it drifts very far away from the way the marketing people talk about it because they develop their own kind of way of doing it. The question there is like, well, why are they not in lockstep? Why is marketing not talking to sales and they sound the same and it's because they don't talk to each other. And many times too, another part of it is I'm like sold on a product based on the marketing message. And then when the salespeople come in, it almost feels like a different product. It's like, that's not the way you guys talk about this. I you're talking about that. Yeah. Well, you know, our marketing messages were
WARREN ZENNAsort of old, you know, we, we, we wrote that when we first started, but we've iterated a number of times, you know, so we're sort of doing this now, you know, it's like, well, you know, you probably
WARREN ZENNAshould have told me that, you know, like, so there's a, there's a lot of this stuff. And so what I'm pointing to in this long answer is just, I noted this massive misalignment between these three functions and then, and then you're a customer and now you're dealing with a product delivery person. And it's like, wait a minute, I didn't know these five things about this thing. You didn't explain that to me. And it's a big problem and it's an inevitable problem. And so I thought, you know, there needs to be some leadership to solve this problem. And it should be the chief revenue officer, because you need somebody who's sitting in the right seat in the C-suite to be a single leadership voice that can organize and align revenue operation, as opposed to having a CRO and a CMO and a CSO and a CTO where you're extensively codifying in your culture silos of leaders whom have different point of view and which, you know, I don't want to say they shouldn't have a different point of view. They should, but they should have the same goals in the same system and the same process. Right. And they don't. And so I thought, you know, what is this role, the chief revenue officer role? And why did it become a sales role? What happened? And so I started doing a lot of research on this and I thought, you know, I want to create a company that brings greater definition or precision to the definition of the role of chief revenue officer for the marketplace and then help companies change the perception of the role so that they define it differently and look at it differently and then train people to be capable of doing that. And then also help companies know how to take advantage of and activate a CRO in that capacity. And so I started the CRO Collective to do that. So I got a preposterously
SPEAKER_12long answer to your question, but that's how it all started. That's all good. And from what I
RACHAEL BUECKERTunderstand, so you work directly with CEOs to help make sure that they're hiring the right CRO and that their company is quote unquote CRO ready. Yeah. So that's sort of one of my ICPs. And I did,
WARREN ZENNAI guess you could say, come up with this notion of CRO readiness about four years ago. So yeah,
WARREN ZENNAI work with the founders of the companies whom are at a very specific inflection point and I help them first figure out like why they want a CRO in the first place and how to find one that's going to be appropriate for them and then how to onboard one and get the organization ready for one, which is a big part of it. It's actually, I think, frankly, the most difficult thing that CROs encounter when they get to a company is how ready are they for me right now. So that's really what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_47And so why is it so crucial that companies hire the right CRO and support them properly?
SPEAKER_48What do they stand to gain or to lose? Well, I mean, mainly you think about any time in my view, it should be thought this way. If I'm hiring
WARREN ZENNAsomeone that has the word chief in front of the title, it should be a pretty important position, right? I mean, it's someone who's going to be representative of the leadership of the organization and have a lot of authority because of that title. And with that authority comes a great deal of impact. You know, I've seen companies where a chief something coughs in a meeting and everyone interprets it weirdly, you know, literally like, you know, everything you do when you have that sort of position has a ripple effect on things. So I think based on that, a company should just be really
WARREN ZENNAthoughtful about it. I think that companies have a tendency to promote people too soon to give them
WARREN ZENNAC-suite titles because they just sort of like, maybe you want to, in lieu of compensation or something
SPEAKER_12like that. But with the CRO role, you know, if, if I, if I don't even understand it, let's say I don't
WARREN ZENNAunderstand the role, like which most don't honestly. And then I hire a CRO whom we're not on the same
WARREN ZENNApage about what the role is and it's not defined clearly. And there's this sort of perfunctory, well, you know, we'll kind of make it up as we go along. We'll figure it out sort of thing, you know? Yeah. And you know, there always is a little bit of jazz you're playing when you're working at a company. So I get that, but it has to be clear. It's not like, you know, you hire somebody to work in the kitchen and then you find out they should be working in the front of the house. I mean, that's, that's just completely off, you know? So, hey, you got to get the definition, right? You got to know why it is that you want to hire a chief revenue officer. Like what's the business outcome I want this person to do? And how does this person fit in with the rest of the organization? How do I slot this person in, in a way that I can allow the company to grow and mature as a result of this hire, as opposed to having this person be constrained by the lack of growth of the company or innovation of the company. It should be a catalyst for those things. And so you have to sort of think ahead a little bit more and ask questions that maybe you're not thinking about enough when you're hiring somebody, which is what impact is this role going to have on the people that they're in dealing with? And what ways in which do I have to reorganize things to make sure this person is given the right tools and support and remit and focus and authority to do their job? And if you don't, most CROs only last like 15, 17 months, it's bad for the company. It's a very expensive hire. That's a lot of money to invest for something that didn't really have a long cadence. And it's disruptive because, you know, if I hire a CRO and it doesn't work out, then I'm going to hire another one. And that probably won't
WARREN ZENNAwork out because if I might use the same method to do it the second time, I'm probably going to make the same mistakes. Right. And the other problem is too, it's hard to know what didn't work because what tends to happen is the founder blames the person they hired. Oh, I hired the wrong person.
WARREN ZENNAAnd yeah, maybe you did, but you don't really know that because if you didn't have the right environment for that person, then a lot of it is the environment. And if you don't take responsibility for that, then you're not really owning what the whole issue was. And so I'm just thinking a little bit more science, a little bit more system, a little bit more process and a little more strategy around
WARREN ZENNAhow the role is implemented so that it's successful. Yeah. And I was going to ask what you thought one
RACHAEL BUECKERTof the biggest challenges that companies faced when hiring a CRO was, but I imagine that's what it is, right? Just knowing what they're doing. Getting it wrong. I mean, you know, when you hire
WARREN ZENNAa CRO, I think anyway, I mean, sometimes again, like I said, a lot of them are just hiring them to run sales and okay, fine. That has its own inherent problems, which we won't get into right now. But if I'm hiring a CRO to be a strategic and aligned, you know, leadership role for the whole entire revenue operation, I mean, I, I would say, I say to my clients all the time, you can't afford to get that wrong. I mean, you still might, you know, I can't guarantee success, but you want to do everything you can to mitigate that risk as much as possible because the stakes are too high. So, you know, the biggest danger is I bring somebody in, I do all these changes, I do all this stuff, the person makes all these decisions and, you know, they're, these are big decisions. You know, it's not just like, I'm going to rearrange the, you know, the craft table in the back of the office, you know, and get different water. You know, I'm literally saying, we're going to have a new technology stack. You know, we're going to go to market differently. We're going to redefine our ICP. We're going to make a difference in the way that we build our sales stack. These are massively important decisions that if I, if I, if I don't do them correctly with the wrong context, undoing those things after you let go of somebody is, it's costly too. It's, it's a massively costly thing to get this wrong. Right. And so because there isn't a process that's been developed for this yet, it's everyone's making it up. Right. So I'm saying why make it up, you know?
RACHAEL BUECKERTExactly. And what do you think people get wrong the most about the definition of the role for CROs? That they run sales. Okay. That's it. That they, that they're sales leaders.
WARREN ZENNAThat's the biggest mistake they make. And they give a sales leader, the CRO title, mainly for reasons I alluded to before. One is, well, a CRO sounds better, you know, literally it could be that similar. Sometimes it's like, you know, if we put out a CRO position in LinkedIn, we'll find better candidates. It attracts a different type of honeybee, you know, but the other one is, you know, we really can't afford someone who's really great. So the CRO title is very attractive to people. So maybe in lieu of compensation, they'll get a CRO title. So there's a little bit of like horse trading there, which is really stupid, you know? So I see this stuff a lot. Sometimes it's just the board said, we need a CRO. You know, you're at a point where you've got 25, 30 million in revenues or 50 million revenues. I think it's time we had a CRO on. Why? Why? Right? It is sometimes amazingly not a lot of thought put into these things. And the fallback position is, well, we'll just have the person run sales anyway. Most CROs run sales. We're just going to hire or interview a bunch of sales leaders anyway. You know, again, that's not right. You know, I think that there's a much more diverse, you know, group of people that can be implemented into the job effectively, in some cases more effectively than a sales leader. So I think there's a lot of mistakes that they make around that.
SPEAKER_47And what would be your definition for the CRO?
SPEAKER_74The CRO is the leader of the entire revenue operation overseeing marketing, sales, customer success, all the customer facing parts of the business. They lead the go to market, right? They're
WARREN ZENNAthe ones who are in charge. They have all the revenue generating functions of the business underneath them. Now, does that mean they do all of them? No, of course not. They're responsible for their success and the integration of them. And so they need to hire effective, functional leaders. They need to hire a sales leader, a marketing leader, customer success leader, maybe even a sort of product liaison, possibly. And definitely a rev ops leader, for sure. That's a big key thing they need. You guys know this. I mean, this is your bread and butter, right? So, you know, what you're doing is you're performing a vital function for companies and that you're helping them, you know, codify and understand the details of the business that they're running. But if the CRO is not owning that, then it's a mistake, you know? So, you know, you're, you're not hiring someone to run a sales organization. You're hiring someone to recalibrate the way all those customer facing functions work together and build a system
WARREN ZENNAor a revenue engine whereby those three organizations work together in lockstep with the customer of being the center. Mm-hmm. And so we had talked briefly before about the biggest challenges that CROs face,
RACHAEL BUECKERTyou know, when first entering a business. And you mentioned something about having to restructure the organization or making sure that the organization structure is optimized. Can you explain that a little bit more? Yeah. So I analogize this to, I mean, you know, you and I both were once teenagers. We know
WARREN ZENNAwhat that's like. Yeah. You know, you're kind of in between two places. You know, you're not a kid anymore. You're not a grown up either. You know, you're confused. You're, you're not still a child, but you're not a grown up yet. And you know, that's a awkward time, but it's also a time when we're at our most powerful, right? I mean, 17 year olds, 18 year olds are extremely powerful. They're really creative. You know, they're just at the height of all their awareness. And there's a lot of, you know, aspects are very consistent with the stage of that. And they're also, if I may, they're all really, they're also really stupid. I mean, you know, teenagers make really dumb decisions. They really have bad judgment. You know, they have no understanding of consequence. You know, they're very much myopically thinking about things that are happening right in front of them that are very driven by a lot of emotional things and needs and things. It's normal, right? There's nothing wrong with it. Just, that's just the stage you're at. And so, you know, and if you, I don't know if you are, but you know, if you become a parent one day, you know, you, you have empathy for it. You look at your kids and you realize they're knuckleheads, but you also know, well, I was, I was a knucklehead too. So I say this, why do I, why am I saying this? Because companies are the same way. That's why. So there's, they go through their, their, their growth stages. And I think when a company reaches, it's like, you know, let's put it analogously, they're like, you know, 18 years old or 19 year olds. They're at their powers, right? They're making great products and they're making amazing things. And they go to market with them and there's this magic behind them and they get customers, customers, but they haven't matured yet. And you know, a lot of the things that they have no choice but do are based on very short term, very myopic needs, which are their realities, right? I got to get a lot of sales right now. I got to close deals as quickly as possible. I get to get as many customers as possible, which is all perfectly makes sense. You do need to do that. You know, in your early stage of your company, you're, you're mostly a sales organization at that stage, which is perfectly appropriate. Then what happens now is you reach a level of operational complexity where now, you know, you're in your mid twenties, you're late twenties. And all of a sudden, you know, it's like, wait a minute, I have to recalibrate how I operate here because, you know, my world's gotten more complicated. I make my own money now and I'm paying my own rent and I'm managing budgets and, you know, driving a car and, you know, I'm getting into more like serious relationships. And all of a sudden the thinking that I had when I was 18, 19 years old, doesn't work for me anymore. But I'm used to that thinking. I did it for a long time and I'm comfortable with it, you know? So, you know, you sort of have, you're at the mercy of, you know, the, the, your environment changes your thinking and your opera because it doesn't work anymore. So we all organically grow up. I mean, some of us do, I know a lot of people my own age who are still teenagers, but you know what I mean? Generally speaking, we all kind of grow up, right? And we all figure it out because we have to. And, you know, what I'm proposing in my model, and I'm not far off on a lot of what other people think is, well, why wait? Why, why go through all the mistakes that teenagers make and figure it out the hard way? Why don't we just codify growth and like get a blueprint for it and jump ahead and, you know, be more like scientific about it, you know? And so I think that when a company is like at the point where they're getting going through that stage, that's when they're vulnerable to making mistakes like this, right? So they're like, oh, I, I need to hire someone who runs this group in a certain way. And if I'm still thinking in that short-term thinking, like teenage thinking, I'm going to hire someone to continue the short-term thinking for the company as opposed to bringing on somebody who is more designed to be more of a longer-term thinker of the company. And, you know, that's a big shift in the way a company needs to think about the way they run things. And it can get very complicated. So if I'm going to bring somebody into the company that is going to be representative of a whole different way of thinking about things, then that's going to affect everybody else in the company. I have to have everybody else start thinking differently. I got to say, okay, look, everybody, I know that like, we've been focusing a lot on, you know, top-down revenue for the last four years. And all we've done is just bang on the phones and do as much outbound as possible. But we're sort of at the point now where we've tackled the first stage of our business and now we need to recalibrate. And so I need everybody to focus a bit more on customers. Now I need to be thinking more about how we keep customers in the pipeline longer and how we keep them to renew or, you know, upgrade or expand. We need to think a little bit more about longer term ways that we're going to build our markets and everyone sort of has to kind of shift. And so it's a very disruptive thing. If I bring in a CRO as the inflection point for that new culture, a lot of people are going to be, wait a minute, I've been being measured this way for the last three years. And I've been really successful at it. Now you're going to start measuring me differently. Well, I don't know how to do that. Now I'm threatened. I might not be successful. I might lose my job or this person is going to report. I have to report to this person now, and I don't want to report to this person. I like reporting to you and I'm being sublimated or I'm being marginalized, you know, all the crap that goes through, right? And so if you don't really sort of understand the human dynamics of it, A, and then B, also the systems dynamics, like, okay, well, we got to change our technologies. We've got to change our systems. We've got to change our processes. We've got to change all this stuff. These are very big things that companies sometimes don't get through very successfully. You know, they don't make it, you know? And I think a CRO in the way that I'm defining it is this catalyst for all that stuff. You know, it kind of defines, okay, we're, we're maturing now and we're going to take a different approach to the marketplace and all these things that maybe we're not operating in lockstep. That's done. We, we, we, we were, that worked for us. I used the line that I know is pretty popular, which is, you know, what got us here won't get us there. So we have to, to change, right? So that's sort of like the impact that does. Mm-hmm. And what would you give as advice, I'd say, to,
RACHAEL BUECKERTyou know, a new CRO coming into a role and they're facing the challenge of restructuring things and they don't know where to start or how to handle that process and the politics of it? Yeah. Well, I think the first thing is to back it up a bit is before you take the job is to know
WARREN ZENNAwhat you need in order to know if the job is going to be one where you're going to succeed at. And this is the CRO readiness thing. So if I'm on the other side of the coin, if I'm interviewing for a CRO job, I need to go to the marketplace with my eyes open. I got to say, all right, first of all, first question I have to ask myself is if anyone's listening to this is looking for a chief revenue officer job, the first thing you have to think about is what role do I want? Do I want that CRO role that's head of sales? Which to be honest with you, my opinion is that's not a CRO, it's just a title. Fine. I got no personal issue with that. If you want that title and you want that role, go for it. It has its own issues, which you'll encounter, but they're out there in abundance and fine. But should you choose to say, wow, this is a really interesting conversation. And, you know, I listen to what, you know, Warren and his company are doing and I'm interested in the more like actual strategic CRO position. I'd like that job. Okay, good. So my advice to them is first is make sure that the company that's interviewing agrees with you. Okay. So in other words, like make sure that they're not hiring ahead of sales because you're already misaligned from the interview at that point, because you're not looking for the same job. Right. That's like, I bring a plumber over to the house and I say, you know, fix my garage. It's like, well, why'd you bring a plumber over? You know, it's like, okay, it was probably the wrong fit, you know? And so I think there's that. So the first thing is, if I'd be more succinct is just make sure that you both are in agreement as to what a CRO is. So let's say they, you are, okay. You kick the tires a little bit and you find out, yep. You know, we're on board with this. We believe that, that that's a firm philosophy here. We think a CRO should
SPEAKER_12really run our whole marketing organ. I mean, revenue operation. And we're looking for someone like that. Okay, great. So then I would ask, have you hired one before? Is this your first CRO?
WARREN ZENNAAnd if the answer is yes, I'd say, great. So what sort of process have you decided to adopt in order to make sure that this is, this whole appointment is going to be successful? And I'd like to listen to what they say. Right. And the reality is, it's sort of a trick question because there isn't one, you know? I mean, I'm pretty much, I wrote the playbook on this, you know, there isn't like some codified way to do this out there. So you're listening to see what they say, because it's going to give you a lot of insight into how they're approaching bringing this person out. And you want to listen for stuff like this. And then I would suggest that you offer to help them figure that out.
SPEAKER_103Okay. So in other words, I'm the CRO, I'm the guy. So I'm going to help you figure that out. And so now
WARREN ZENNAyou're not just coming in to help fulfill a role, but you're also helping them figure out how to make the role successful. That's a value proposition for them that as a CRO, you should be able to bring to the table. Right. And so I think that that's the way that you can coordinate together. And I apologize if I interrupted there before, is, is, is I can talk a lot, as you can tell, is that, you know, there has to be a bit of a dance, right? There should be an acknowledgement in the scenario I just said, the CRO or the CEO, I'm sorry, the founder says, yeah, I never did this before. There should be some humble acknowledgement that they don't know what they're doing because they haven't done it before. And they're okay with that. And they want to collaborate with you on how to do it right now. Now you've put yourself in the perfect position to shape the process in a way that's going
WARREN ZENNAto be successful because you're involved in it. You're not at the mercy of it, which is, you don't want to be at the mercy of that process. That's the whole point, you know?
RACHAEL BUECKERTRight. So the answer you're looking for, if they're saying, no, we've never hired a CRO before, and you ask them, you know, what is your process? You want them to say, oh, we don't really know yet. We're trying to find somebody who can help shape it. Maybe, or, or they might take a shot at it. They, they, you know, another answer could be,
WARREN ZENNAwe don't know, but you know, we, we wrote one up.
SPEAKER_110Okay. You know, I would be like, okay, cool. That's great. Let me look at it. You know, like to me,
WARREN ZENNAif someone came to me and said, you know, we didn't really have a process, but we did have a committee about this before we went out to find one and we put together a little plan and here it
WARREN ZENNAis. I'd look at that plan and I'd see how thoughtful it is. Right. I mean, if it's a good plan, I'd be like, okay, these are smart people. Very cool. You know, they thought this through and that would give me a lot of confidence that this is a company that would probably be a good fit because they give it some thought. The other option, like you said, is they said, I don't know. We don't never did it before. That means that they're honest, which is a good thing too. Right. What you don't want to hear as well, you know, we'll work it out or, you know, we will handle it. You know, that's, that's, you can run away from a situation like that because they won't handle it. You know, it's, it's complicated. So you're, you're sort of doing these things as a way to uncover, right. Their culture around the company and stuff, you know,
RACHAEL BUECKERTLike how collaborative they expect that role to be. Yeah. How they define it. I mean, we can get into this. You and I can have a conversation
WARREN ZENNAabout this whole topic right now for another two hours. You know, it could, it could be like, you know, I won't do that because people are probably already falling asleep, but what I'll do is I'll say, you know, it's like, okay. So, so Mr. Founder, if you're of the belief, which is great, and I'm glad you're, you and I are in lockstep here that you think this is a more leadership, like revenue leader. How is your, what is your current thinking on how this role is going to impact other people in the company? And what, what are you, what are you, what are your thoughts on that? Like, for example, do you have a marketing person already? And if so, is this person to have a CMO title? And if so, what's your vision for how the CRO would interact with the CMO? Like there's so many things you can go down the road here, you know, and you're looking to find out what they think about all these things. Cause you want to know it, how thoughtful they are about these things and how much time they put into thinking about the ripple effect and what they're thinking about it and what they're, how they're sort of noodling on it. Cause it's going to give you insights into how they think. You can tell if they're bullshitting you or not, you know, you could see, they're just making up a bunch of crap or they're saying, you know, wow, we really thought about that. We don't really know. Okay. Or, yo, I didn't know. I didn't really think about that. It's a really good question. Okay. It's fine. You know, but you know, it just, again, it just gives you more insight, you know, and then as per your question, okay, so fine. Now you had an agreement and you got the job, you know, what you should be doing in the interview process is already showing them your process. You should, they should be aware of it. You should test your process. Say, well, here's what I like to do first. Uh, which maybe that you want to know what those things are, but you know, I don't think you can get there until you have that agreement. Right. So, so now you can say, all right, so I think the first thing we need to do is, is we need to assess the health of the, the maturation, the maturity level of your revenue operation. That's where you guys come in, right? This is like, I would bring in someone like you and I'd say, you know, you'll want to work with union square consulting, their partner of mine, you know, and they're amazing and they do this for a living. And what we'll do together is we'll really get in the weeds with your business. We'll figure out really what's going on. Cause right now I bet you don't know. And I can tell you don't know because I'll ask you three questions right now. I know you won't know the answer to them, and I can ask those questions. They won't know the answer. And it's fine because most people don't
SPEAKER_08know the answer to a lot of those questions because yeah, no one, right. And so, you know,
WARREN ZENNAyou're sort of again, establishing this process where once that's done and that data has been created, it then can be evaluated against a delta of where they want to be. Right. And it's more detailed than just some cursory pipeline review. It's like real, you know, I don't kind of tell you, you know, what I'm talking about. And so, you know, this is the sort of thing that we do is that we, we, we go into the company with this, you know, let's, let's get in the weeds here and really do a full, you know, I look at it like the difference between a blood test and a full body MRI, you know?
SPEAKER_122Right.
WARREN ZENNAAnd so you really get more data and then, you know, you put the work into that. And then now from that, we can derive the areas that the chief revenue officer needs to start working on first to build a revenue engine based on that data. And that becomes then sort of like the remit of
WARREN ZENNAthe CRO for the first like six months or so, just to get that shit together, you know?
WARREN ZENNARight. And so that's sort of like the way I see the role is, is, is really building a foundation for like real true systemic growth and process growth, you know? Mm-hmm. And to go back to the concept of CRO readiness,
RACHAEL BUECKERThow do you approach that when you're working with founders and CEOs and they're thinking that they want to hire their first, sorry, CRO?
SPEAKER_46Yeah. So the first question I usually ask is similar to what we just went through. I say, why?
WARREN ZENNAWhy do you want to hire one? What business event occurred that had you think that the CRO role is the right thing to look for? And I asked that question as open as I can, because I want to hear what they say, you know? Because again, like I just said to you, like what they say is going to be revealing to me about what they think, right? So I get a lot of answers like, well, you know, our sales have stalled, you know? Yeah. I think that we've kind of reached the peak of our current market penetration that we have within our network right now. We really need to expand into new markets or expand to outside. And that means we're going to have to get a little bit more sophisticated with the way that we go to market. And so I need some salesperson, sales leader to come in that really knows how to build that type of organization. So to me, that would be like, okay, so then you're looking for a sales motion. And then, so yeah, you know, exactly. It's okay. So why don't you just hire a head of sales is what I'd say, right? Why CRO, you know? And it's intentional, a bit of a gamesmanship here, but I'm trying to get them to sort of tell me. And most of the time I'll hear things like, well, what are you? What's the difference? You know? And that's, that's where the point can be made where I can say, well, here's the difference. And then they're either persuaded. They think I make sense or they don't, you know? So my, my clients, you know, they tend to agree, right? They're like, wow, either a, wow, I didn't think about that. That's a really good insight. Thank you. I'm glad I spoke to you. We're going to recalibrate. Or they say, we were already thinking about it that way. You know, we're familiar with this notion and we want to do that. Or they say, yeah, I don't agree with you.
WARREN ZENNAI think CROs were on sales. I'll say, okay, cool, great. Good luck. You know,
WARREN ZENNAprobably not a good fit for me there because, you know, I'm not going to try and change their mind. I mean, I probably could if I was, had to, I'm actually positive I could, but how much work do I want to put into that? You know, it's, it's, it's, I'd rather have someone who's just interested in this and that's what they want to do. So that's how I approach it. And then, and then if they say, great, well, you know, walk me through your process. You know, I say, well, I would explain what I did to you just now is that we think that what you should do first is I would ask a couple of questions, which would be, have you identified somebody already that you want to hire? Is there like an internal person who you want to promote that you've identified as the CRO? Or are you out looking for one right now? Do you already have a job description out there? Are you interviewing people? Or is this still just like a kernel of an idea? Like, where are you in the stage? That's important because, you know, if they're already out there doing a search, I'd say, whoa, hold on a second. You kind of jumped the gun. I mean, like, let me take a look at the job description and let me take a look at the kind of people looking at because maybe you're already making some mistakes. And I evaluate that. Or I say, oh, so you've chosen Steve, you know, who's your head of sales to be your CRO. Why Steve? And it's usually like, well, he's a great leader and a great sales leader. Okay, I get that. But does that mean this person has the right competencies to do the job you and I are talking about? He might, I don't know, but do you know that? How do you know that? Right? Right. What tools are you using to evaluate that competency? Do you know? Okay, well, we should figure that out before you put that person in the role. Because if it's wrong, it's going to be a mistake, right? So these are the sort of things I'm doing.
SPEAKER_47And what are some examples of those other competencies and how they can figure that out and measure that? Yeah. So, you know, when you look at a sales leader, really good sales leaders
WARREN ZENNAhave a lot of competencies that are really appropriate for a CRO, right? I mean, if they're good at building sales organizations, then, you know, they're, first of all, they're, they're leaders, right? And if they build a successful sales organization, then that means they must also hire well and train well and develop well, right? Because, you know, good sales organizations have those qualities. They have good people and, you know, they do good things and they do consistent things. And also good sales leaders are also pretty, you know, good with measuring things and they know how to manage growth and goals and, you know, forecasting and quota attainment, et cetera, et cetera. So those are all good things. But what's missing from those is they're many times not thinking a lot about marketing and customer success growth. And those are critical parts of the job. And so I'd want to know, you know, what's your relationship to marketing? And, you know, some sales leaders are really smart about that stuff, but a lot of them are like, I don't know. I don't really care. Those people don't do anything. You know, they just make me decks and, you know, slides and shit, you know? And so, you know, I'd say, well, you know, think about the customer from the moment that they are touched by your organization, whether it be through some ad they see or video they watch, they never heard you before, to the point at which they renew the whole
SPEAKER_95thing, right? Your, your role as a sales leader only occurs at a piece of that, right? So you need to
WARREN ZENNAknow what it's like to be following that customer without the whole thing and be able to know how to manage that whole thing. Again, like I said before, does that mean you have to be a marketer? No, but it needs to have to understand it and have an interest in it. And so that's one thing. So I guess I would say in short, sort of a holistic business sense about the customer, right? And the other one too is leadership skills. So, you know, when you're a CRO, you're mostly probably reporting into the board and the CEO. So you're going to be doing a lot of board presentations. You're going to be
WARREN ZENNAon the chopping block once a quarter, at least, right? Where you're going to be standing in front
WARREN ZENNAof the board and, you know, talking about some very important things and you sort of know how to have to know how to do that, you know? And it's not just putting good slide decks together and knowing what
WARREN ZENNAdata to show. It's also knowing those nuances about how to communicate things in the right way and package them the right way and how to exude the right confidence at the right times. And, you know, what sort of things to share and what sort of not to share and how to, you know, communicate the things that you need to share and, you know, what not to say. I mean, it's a really, that's a really tricky thing, but you certainly need to know how to do that. You need to have a good instinct for those sort of things. And you also have to have a certain kind of gravitas. You know, if you're going to be reporting into a board, they want to know like, you know, up there sweating, you know, and stuff that you're like, they feel confident that you got the right person there. You can be decisive, you know how to make decisions, you know, to hire well, you're data driven, right? You know how to work with a rev ops team and build a rev ops organization and understand what that means.
WARREN ZENNAYou have a real good sense of the customer. You're talking to customers a lot. You understand the product, you understand the product and how it works and how it affects people and how it impacts people. You know, you're probably got some good financial acumen, right? Cause you're probably looking a lot at numbers and compensation plans and quotas and, you know, forecasting and stuff.
WARREN ZENNARevitability and margins and, you know, customer cost, you know, cost, customer acquisition costs, et cetera, et cetera. So these are sort of things that I think a CRO really needs to be sort of like the CEO of a revenue operation, you know?
SPEAKER_142Yeah. That's a pretty diverse, you know, required skill set to have for sure.
SPEAKER_96It's a big job. Yeah.
RACHAEL BUECKERTYeah. And I think that's one of the big things about the definition of the role. Like I, that's why so many people don't realize what a CRO actually does. They don't realize that a CRO does so much stuff other than just the sales operation.
WARREN ZENNAYep. Yep. That's right. And so, you know, I think these are important distinctions. I think companies that get this, they, they move from that teenage stage to grown up stage a little bit faster, you know?
SPEAKER_07Yeah. And so for a CRO looking to join a new company and apologies if you've already touched
RACHAEL BUECKERTon this a bit, but what are some of the things that they should be looking for in a prospective
RACHAEL BUECKERTemployer to make sure that they're, they know that they're going to be supported in their role enough to do their job properly?
SPEAKER_10Well, I, you know, as I said, I mean, the four things that I say a CRO needs to look for that
WARREN ZENNAthey need to get from their company, the CRO needs to have the proper authority, the proper autonomy,
SPEAKER_74proper level of resources, and runway to do the job.
SPEAKER_12So you want to kind of kick the tires on those things, right? How much authority am I going to
WARREN ZENNAget? Like, am I really the C-suite leader of the revenue operation? Do I have the, the carte blanche to whatever degree to make decisions and, you know, make hiring decisions and other things that I need to do without being like micromanaged or maybe second guessed all the time? Autonomy is like, you know, I can experiment with things, you know, I can sort of figure things out and iterate in my own laboratory before I come to them with things. You know, resource is obvious. It's people and money, right? I need talent and I need, I need dollars to do things and I need sufficient to both, you know? And then runway is the hardest one to get because they never give you enough time to do anything, right? So it's like, how much time do I have? Are you realistic about what the expectations are? Or am I going to like end up in a situation where you want me to get things done and turn it into two months because you don't have the time, you know? And I think that's, that's a big issue I see a lot of times. And so I'd want to know those things. And I also want to know what the culture's like, some of the obvious shit, which is like, is the product good? Do I want to sell this? Is this like a product I feel good about? Is the company on the right trajectory? Do they have a good market position right now? Are they competitive? You know, like these are really important things that, you know, you sort of need to be, be on top of,
WARREN ZENNAyou know?
RACHAEL BUECKERTRight. And we, we see that issue a lot as well with some of our leads and prospects that we try talking to, even if they are CROs, sometimes they have the CRO title, but they don't have the authority and they don't have the time or the budget to get the help that they need to actually execute on these big org restructures or these, these revenue generating initiatives that they need to do to get the company in a place where it can scale. And then there's nothing we can do if they don't have the authority to change anything. Right. Yeah. They're right. And, and these are the trappings
WARREN ZENNAof the job is very common. You know, I've been in this situation that myself, I was a CRO at a company
WARREN ZENNAand I just wasn't given anything I needed, you know, it was like, go do miracles and no, you don't have
WARREN ZENNAanything to do it with. And, you know, these are no win situations a lot of the times, you know? And so
WARREN ZENNAthat's why you gotta be really smart about this stuff. Like when you go get a job like this, you know, you sort of have to like really kick the tires on it. And here's the, here's the temptation. This is the problem, Rachel. So if I'm interviewing for a CRO job and I really want the CRO job, you know, a lot of times,
SPEAKER_12you know, you're really tantalized by the title, you know, and maybe the increase in salary that
WARREN ZENNAyou're going to get. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to, you know, I'm going to like just say yes to everything. So I get the job and I get the title and I'll figure it out afterwards. That's really stupid. Really, really, really stupid. So it's really difficult, you know, and I can imagine in your situation, it's gotta be terrible to be dealing with someone who is essentially the person who can, you know, green light your whole thing, but they can't get anything done, you know? And, and there's, you know, I know Eddie and I talked about this. There's probably ways to qualify that up front, you know, so you can find the right person to work with, but it is hard. I mean, I, I, I'm not painting some, some sort of Pollyannic picture here. I mean, what I'm asking for, it's not easy to get. What I'm saying, however, though, and I think that you should be really very authoritative about this when you are in this role is that you need it. Like, I don't care. Like, I understand it's hard for me to get these things, but, you know, if you want to, this role to fulfill its destiny, those things are necessary. I don't care. Like, I, I understand you're under constraints, but how do you expect me to do those things with those limitations, you know? And if they have some
SPEAKER_22sort of answer, well, it's like, well, grow up big fella, you know, it's like, well, okay, I can grow up, I guess, but you know, I'll also probably just not take this job, you know? So, you know,
WARREN ZENNAyou really need to find companies that are sort of like at the point where they're ready to do this because, you know, there is this sort of like balance between being the, you know, perspicacious startup where you just do a lot of stuff and you make it work with nothing and you sleep on the floor. It's all great. And there's a point where it's like, well, you know, but you know, now, okay, now you want to play big ball. We got to have stuff, you know? And, you know, maybe the timing isn't right. Like maybe you want a CRO, but you're the constraints in your organization right now just won't make a CRO succeed. So you should wait, you know, a CRO is not going to come in and save the day for you. You know, you have to give the CRO the stuff that they need to save the day for you, if you will. And, you know, I think that they're like, well, we'll do it anyway. You know, we'll figure it out. I just wouldn't get myself in that situation. Now I might, if I was in my thirties, cause you know, why not? You know, it'd be a cool situation. I'd learn a lot. You know, it's a cool story. I got this job. It was a mess, but man, I came out of it and it, it, it builds your, your, your character up and you learn a lot of things, but you know, most CEOs and CROs aren't going to get hired at that young, you know, they're going to be in their late forties or early fifties at that point, you know? And, you know, I, I would argue even, I would argue even if you are,
RACHAEL BUECKERTyou know, a younger CRO. Yeah. I still don't know. I still don't know if I take that job.
SPEAKER_151Yeah, I get it. I do. And I understand why you do. I mean, there's, there's a winging
WARREN ZENNAit is to it. It's like, ah, what the hell, you know, it'll be cool. You know, I'll work this through this and I'll learn stuff and I'll, and there, there could be things, look, any experience, even bad is beneficial in some way. Right. In fact, I think, I'm sure you detest that we learn the most in the worst situations. Right. But that doesn't mean you should do it for that reason. You know, it's like the guy who's jealous of someone that had cancer because they're so enlightened now. It's like, you don't get cancer to get enlightened, you know, like you're getting enlightened a lot
SPEAKER_10of other ways, you know, for sure. There certainly are, you know, I would almost, yeah, it could help
RACHAEL BUECKERTwith growth and whatnot, but I wouldn't waste too much time in a role like that. If you decided to take it and was like, okay, let's see if I can work some magic here. Let's see if I can learn from this and see where it goes. Yep. If, you know, a year passes and you're still like throttled from doing your actual job and you're not getting anywhere, you're not putting any success.
SPEAKER_142It's frustrating. It's really tough. I was in this situation and it's, it's, I got to tell you,
WARREN ZENNAit was funny, but it was the catalyst for me starting this business. You know, I, it was really difficult, really difficult. I just was like, I, I, I would never do that again. And, you know,
WARREN ZENNAI just didn't have the wherewithal at the time to know what to ask. And I would have seen the writing on the wall. And honestly, I probably also, if I'd be honest, I probably would have taken the job anyway, because honestly, I was that guy who wanted the title and the money, you know? And, you know, it's good to learn that lesson because now I don't care about either, you know? And so, you know, it sort of weaned me off these sort of tantalizing things that mean nothing. And it was good, but, you know, it was, it was difficult. I mean, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to go through it again, you know? Yeah. If there's a CRO listening to this right now who maybe is just now realizing
RACHAEL BUECKERTthat they're not actually being supported properly, we're not being given the tools to succeed that
RACHAEL BUECKERTthey need. What would their next move be? Yeah. I get, I get these calls probably more than any other
WARREN ZENNAcall. It's the, you know, what do I do, you know, call. And you know, what I usually say is like, well, let's find out what's really going on, right? Like how much of it is you and how much of it is the company? Because there's two sides to this, right? You know, the company may have lost confidence in you because you're just not doing a good job. And so they're not giving you things because they don't think that you can handle them. Let's talk about that, right? And the other one is, you know, these constraints that you have, what's the reason for them? You know, are they financial constraints?
WARREN ZENNAAre they cultural constraints? Are they limiting beliefs or whatever, whatever they are? I guess
WARREN ZENNAwhat I'm saying is I want to get to understand more of what they are, what these things are. Because it's always the same story, right? It's always like, oh, you know, I'm not getting what I need and I get no people and I can't hire anybody. And, you know, so then, you know, we try and
WARREN ZENNAascertain if there's opportunities where either A, that person can reestablish themselves in a way
WARREN ZENNAthat can get more comfort or more, more build up their profile in the organization where they get trust more and they get some of those things. And the other one could be that they recognize that the company's probably being conservative and, you know, tightening their belt and for probably good reasons. I mean, I understand running a business is hard and maybe, you know, you can make a persuasive case to the company that why they shouldn't and why they should be more, give them a little latitude in some of the areas where you want things. And that you can verify through some process or some, some narrative that you can create as to why it is that this is the right idea and what you're going to do with it and provide a, you know, a glimpse into some things you're going to do and see if you can win them over. You know, maybe you just said, you just haven't been persuasive enough, right? Maybe you just didn't know the right things to ask, you know? And then the last leg is,
WARREN ZENNAyou know, sometimes companies are just not going to get you what you want. It doesn't matter. You know, they're just, they're going to say no. You know, my boss doesn't listen to me. He's really stubborn. You know, he thinks he knows everything and, you know, he's very difficult to talk to. And when I bring things up, he's dismissive and, you know, I haven't been able to
WARREN ZENNAcrack through that. And so then my expression is, well, what are you doing there? Like, go get a different one, go get another job, you know, because this sounds to me like a place where you're not going to be given the opportunity to fulfill on the role that you want or what they want. And you're not happy and, you know, and, you know, look, I understand there's a lot of constraints on that too. Oh, I got to, I got to keep this job. I got two kids in school. You know, I understand. I mean, it's not easy. It's a tough thing. But, you know, I try and give them, my clients, enough confidence to say that, you know, hey, you can get another job out there. You've already been a CRO. I can give you a lot of ways you can ensure that the next one's going to be better. And you should, because, you know, being miserable is not good. You know? Yeah. Your situation is untenable and go somewhere else. And then we can work on that together. Or, you know, see if you can change your, your context within the job you have. And maybe you can bring
WARREN ZENNAother people on board to think differently. So.
RACHAEL BUECKERTAnd with the CRO collective, I imagine that's, you know, that could also be a network for people in this position to come together and get resources and, and meet with other CROs and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. We have a master's council, which is roughly six chief revenue officers meet on a
WARREN ZENNAbi-monthly basis to kind of commiserate with each other and share ideas and work through problems.
WARREN ZENNAYou know, it's like a master mind of CROs. And I facilitate those. And I have a course, you know, the course is the CRO accelerator course, which trains revenue leaders to build, become chief revenue officers. And then I have a small community, you know, which you can find people. And I have in my, my, my environment, I have organizations like yours, revenue operations, experts who can do things. So, you know, I try to put, put the right people in the room together so they can get some insights from different people.
SPEAKER_142Yeah. Is that like a Slack community or?
WARREN ZENNAYou know, it's not. I use a different platform for it, but it's. Oh, okay. Similar. So technically Slack is a, just like a term, but it's not on Slack. It's a different platform, but it's, it's. Yeah. School is what it is, but it's, it's a community where you can just log in and join and, you know, you can ask questions and stuff. I'm sure I'm trying to figure out what to do with it, to be frank with you, but it's, it's been cool starting it.
RACHAEL BUECKERTThat's awesome. Well, we're running up on time. We're actually a little bit over time. I'm here. So yeah. Thank you so much, Warren. This is really great. And I'm sure we'll, we'll do this again sometime soon. Um, and where can people find you?
SPEAKER_89Well, I'm, you know, you've already got a sense here. I'm a big mouth, so I'm talking on LinkedIn
WARREN ZENNAa lot. So, you know, I do a lot of content there. You can go to my website, which is the CRO collective.com. And I, I do a lot of video and I have a YouTube channel. It's not that huge, but you know, it's all of my stuff is there. All my videos are there. It's like a lot of different things I've done that can be there. I also have a podcast of my own, which has been
WARREN ZENNAgoing on for almost three years now and it's, it's doing pretty well. It's called the CRO spotlight podcast and it's been really fun and I get great guests. And so you should listen to those episodes and there's like over 60 episodes now. So you can listen to them and you know, they're, they've been pretty insightful. So you can find me in all those places. You can always email me. Warren at the CRO collective.com.
SPEAKER_177Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thank you.
